Transcript #492 Toxic Exposure: The Monsanto Roundup Trials with Dr. Chadi Nabhan

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1. Find out what’s in store on this Myers Detox Podcast with Dr. Chadi Nabhan, the expert witness medical oncologist during the Monsanto Roundup trials, and proved that glyphosate containing Roundup Ready weed killer does in fact cause non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, who joins the show to talk about the trials and this alarming chemical. Dr. Nabhan gives us a first hand account of what it was like to testify in the trial, and some of the surprising things that happened during his time in court. He also goes over what non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma is, and the many other health issues Roundup may be contributing to. We also discuss the political aspects of Roundup and glyphosate, what the EPA is actually doing about it, and the future of this dangerous chemical. So many important topics covered on this pervasive and sometimes lethal chemical, so make sure to tune in!
2. Learn more about Dr. Nabhan, and how he got involved in the Monsanto Roundup trials.
3. Learn more about what the trials entailed, and why many people thought glyphosate was a safe chemical to handle.
4. Is glyphosate leading to other severe health issues?
5. Find out how Monsanto had employees ghost write medical articles to counter the findings of the organization IARC, which found glyphosate was a human carcinogen.
6. Learn about some of the surprising things that happened during the trials.
7. Learn about non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and the type Mr. Johnson had in the major Dewayne Johnson v. Monsanto Company trial.
8. Find out the fascinating story that lead Dr. Nabhan to write his book Toxic Exposure.
9. Learn about all of the incredible info that you will read in the book Toxic Exposure.
10. Find out what’s happening in the Monsanto trials going forward, and the future of glyphosate.
11. Learn about what you should do if you think you’ve had dangerous exposures to glyphosate.
12. Find out where you can learn more about Dr. Nabhan and his book, and read some of his final thoughts.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Hello, everyone. I’m Dr. Wendy Myers. Welcome to the Myers Detox Podcast. We have a great show for you today, Dr. Chadi Nabhan. He was one of the doctors that testified in the Monsanto Roundup trials that showed and proved that Roundup Ready weed killer that contains glyphosate causes non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. So Dr. Chadi was one of the oncologists that testified in three of the trials.

  There were a hundred thousand plaintiffs overall, and just a really good podcast today highlighting what happens during these trials, what Dr. Chadi learned about in these trials, as well as what surprised him. We talk about what non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma is exactly, what other health issues this Roundup Ready weed killer that contains glyphosate can cause, how pervasive it is in the environment, and what’s going on right now as far as litigation and trials and the future of this Roundup Ready weed killer. In 2023, they were supposed to make Roundup not available for sale anymore to the public, but it’s still available for sale. So we just touch on a lot of really interesting concepts about the future of Roundup and glyphosate. So check out the show. It’s really, really good, really informative.

  I know you guys are watching this podcast, and you’re concerned about your health. You’re concerned about how toxins are impacting your health and your toxic load, your body’s burden of heavy metals and chemicals. I created a quiz that you can take at heavymetalsquiz.com. Only takes a couple of minutes. After you get your results, you get a free video series that answers a lot of your frequently asked questions about how to detox, how to be good about it, and how long it takes. I answer a lot of your questions about testing and things of that nature. So go ahead and take the quiz, heavymetalsquiz.com.

  Our guest today is Dr. Chadi Nabhan. He’s an MD and an MBA, and he’s an award-winning hematologist and a medical oncologist who previously hosted an award-winning podcast, Outspoken Oncology, which has now been rebranded to Healthcare Unfiltered, an honest, raw, timely podcast tackling any and all topics in healthcare with no edits and no filters. It’s healthcare unfiltered. So combining his background in clinical care, cancer research, precision medicine, genomics, clinical trials, real-world data, controversies in medicine, and healthcare advocacy, Dr. Nabhan brings a unique and powerful perspective to current medical events. In this weekly podcast, you don’t want to miss this. So you can learn more about Dr. Nabhan and his work at chadinabhan.com.

  Dr. Chadi, thank you so much for coming to the show.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Thank you. Thank you, Wendy, for your invitation. I’m looking forward to our conversation. Appreciate it.

Dr. Wendy Myers: So why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got involved in the Monsanto Roundup trials, and Roundup? One of the active ingredients is glyphosate. So how did you get involved in all that?

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: I never thought I would be involved in any litigation or any trials, frankly, but just for your listeners and viewers, I’m a medical oncologist and a hematologist. So basically, I treat patients who are diagnosed with cancer. I had a particular interest in a form of cancer called non-Hodgkin lymphoma, which is a form of cancer that involves the lymph glands and the immune system in the body. I’ve never testified as an expert witness, I’ve never been an expert witness previously, but I was contacted by a law firm that was representing patients who were suing Monsanto for the Roundup weed killer. As you just mentioned, Wendy, Roundup, the main is glyphosate, which we’ll talk about, but they were alleging that the exposure to Roundup led to their diagnosis with non-Hodgkin lymphoma, that form of cancer. So the law firm was asking me whether I would be willing to review the evidence, do some research, and then decide whether I could serve as an expert witness on behalf of their patients.

I always knew that pesticides are linked to non-Hodgkin lymphoma, always been taught that. I don’t actually remember who was the first person who taught me this when I was in training, but I grew to realize that pesticides are linked to non-Hodgkin lymphoma. I just was not familiar exactly with the data that were specific to Roundup. So I reviewed the evidence, looked at the research, and did what I could. I reviewed some documents that the lawyers also sent me that was part of their discovery process as well after I signed some confidentiality agreements.

Then I became convinced that the link between Roundup and non-Hodgkin lymphoma is strong and depends on the patients. In some patients, exposure to Roundup does cause non-Hodgkin lymphoma, but not in all patients, of course. So I agreed to serve as an expert witness in these litigation trials, and I never knew or expected or even imagined how big these are going to be, to be honest. This was very big. So that’s how it started.

Dr. Wendy Myers: What was involved in that trial? So how many litigants were involved in that trial? It was a big class action lawsuit.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: There are a lot of terminologies and legalese when it comes to class action lawsuits versus MDL, which stands for multidistrict litigation, versus individual lawsuits, all of these things. I think the legalese probably are less critical for your audience. What is important is that, with time, it involved over a hundred thousand patients. In the beginning, it wasn’t that many, but with time, it came to over a hundred thousand patients. I testified in the first three trials ever against Monsanto and Roundup. One of them was in 2018.

Dr. Wendy Myers: That’s incredible. Over a hundred thousand people were involved in this. That’s just people that are coming forward that are having health issues. It’s interesting when I first met my brother, who was given up for adoption, he was a cotton farmer. He was mixing Roundup Ready pesticides or herbicides to put on the cotton crops. He was mixing that when he first called me, which I thought was really interesting, with no protection whatsoever.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: The applicators had no reason to use protection because they were told it was very safe. They were told it was very safe. There were many patients that were told that they could drink it and it was safe. This is something that came up during some of the trials, but it’s interesting you mentioned Roundup Ready Seeds because the use of Roundup as a weed killer started in 1974, became commercially available, and was sold by Monsanto to the public. In 1995 and 1996, that was when Roundup Ready Seeds became available, and these seeds basically allow farmers to basically plant them and you can spray Roundup on them, and they won’t damage the harvest. So because they were modified, genetically modified, soybean, corn, alfalfa, cotton, and others like you said, you can spray the weed killer on them, it kills the weeds, and you still can harvest without any issues. Suddenly, the use of Roundup then exponentially increased because people said, “Well, we can use it. It doesn’t really affect anything that we do,” but guess who was manufacturing and selling the Roundup Ready Seeds? It’s Monsanto, the same company that was selling Roundup.

Dr. Wendy Myers: What is the significance of Roundup in the environment? What is it doing? It’s just everywhere. It’s sprayed in city parks, in schools, and in the crops; the neighbors are spraying it on their lawns. It’s just so pervasive in the environment. What harm has it shown to cause?

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: It is everywhere. It is ubiquitous. It’s a very effective weed killer. Obviously, it kills weeds, and that’s why people are using it, but I don’t believe we fully know the impact of Roundup and how commonly it is applied and used on the overall health of everything. So I’m going to give you a few things just to ponder upon and just to think through, maybe provocative. You already alluded to it. It’s everywhere. Already, every single thing, corn, and soybean, so in bread, we need corn; in cereal, we need corn. So suddenly, you are seeing that all of these that we actually have and consume probably were sprayed by Roundup. The impact of Roundup on the environment and health, in my opinion, this is just my own opinion, is probably a little bit more than just non-Hodgkin lymphoma.

Is it possible that Roundup is causing some issues with endocrine disruption that may be leading to infertility? Is it possible that Roundup is linked to autoimmune diseases and things beyond cancer and beyond lymphoma? I think it’s possible. I don’t know that for sure. I did not investigate or research that. So I think it is important to actually take a look at a holistic approach to the impact of Roundup and glyphosate on all things healthcare, not just only on lymphoma.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yes, because we know that glyphosate and other ingredients and Roundup can harm the gut bacteria and absorption of nutrients and shuttle aluminum to our brain and can cause a lot of different, seemingly, a lot of different metabolic issues. Even if there’s no current research on these findings, you can look at just the metabolite pathways that it’s affecting.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it’s important to keep an open mind to the possibility of how this is causing harm. What I did was mainly looking at the association between glyphosate and lymphoma and cancer and Roundup, but I agree with you. There’s probably an additional impact we need to look at, and we need to investigate. Look, Wendy, what Monsanto has always relied upon is that the EPA said it’s safe, and if the EPA says something is safe, it’s coming from God; you can’t question it. So they relied on that. You and I know that just because the EPA says something is safe, it does not really mean it is safe because there are a lot of other factors that play a role in how the EPA reaches conclusions. There’s political pressure. There are other elements. We probably don’t need to go into it, but suffice it to say just because the EPA says something is good and safe, it does not mean for sure it is good and safe.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yeah, absolutely. So how did Monsanto handle the data that showed that glyphosate was linked to cancer?

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: So the data came out in March 2015. There’s an agency called the IARC, which stands for the International Agency of Research on Cancer. The IARC or this agency is a division of the WHO, the World Health Organization, and they meet frequently, and they basically look at the link between certain materials and compounds that we commonly use and cancer. This was the permeable 112, I believe when they looked at glyphosate. So what does the IARC do? They actually look at animal studies to determine whether glyphosate causes tumors in animals. They look at mechanistic studies. How does glyphosate affect the cells? Does it cause breakage in the DNA, the chromosomes, and things like that? They look at epidemiologic studies, which are human studies. Is there any data to link the compound they are studying to cancer?

They determined in March 2015 that glyphosate, which is the main ingredient of Roundup, is a probable human carcinogen, which means it could cause cancer in some people. Monsanto was well aware that this review was happening by the IARC and the WHO. So as I detail in the book Toxic Exposure, they actually planned a PR campaign into, “How do we really counter the information that’s going to come out?” because they predicted what the output of the IARC is going to be. They had a lot of articles that were in the press, as well as in scientific journals, and we found out later that many of these articles were ghostwritten by Monsanto employees and scientists without acknowledgments that they actually were written by them or at least co-written by them. They did not acknowledge that they were involved in the writing and the content of some of these scientific articles.

So the playbook was, “Let’s have a PR campaign making sure that people really are aware that whatever the IARC said is actually wrong. Let’s get some scientific articles in the literature.” They actually utilized the concept that we need glyphosate and Roundup because it’s going to actually help stop hunger in the world. It’s very silly, right? I think you can look at a lot of these campaigns and a lot of these commercials, and that’s really one of the things that they actually talked about.

They also wanted to downplay the science that actually came out by saying, “Well, if the IARC said it’s actually this, it doesn’t mean it’s that. It’s actually not correct. It’s not accurate.” So they downplayed and discredited some of the scientists who actually were involved in the IARC decision. So they’re powerful, they have deep pockets, and they have a lot of ways to counter what comes out.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yeah, but luckily, they did not prevail. I think it was just such a huge triumph that the truth prevailed in this trial. I really applaud your involvement in this and assisting and making that happen. During these trials, what was the most surprising thing that came out of that that really blew you away?

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: So there were certain things that may not be related to the trial that surprised me as a citizen, as an individual that is testifying for the first time as an expert witness, and I’ll share that with you and, of course, then there was a scientific piece. So the first trial was in the summer of 2018. It was Johnson against Monsanto. It was very well publicized. It was all over the news. Again, it’s a big trial. Bayer, by then, had acquired Monsanto. The deal closed in the spring of 2018 so in the price of closing. I don’t think personally Bayer has done a good job in due diligence to understand what’s going on with glyphosate. Glyphosate is a multi-billion drug, not a drug, multi-billion dollar compound in terms of sales. So they really wanted it, and I think they paid 63 billion dollars to buy Monsanto.

So what was really interesting to me is that the jury in the first trial was very involved. They really wanted to know what was going on. Again, it went probably for six weeks. They really wanted to understand what was actually happening. They asked. They were allowed to ask questions, and they asked very important questions. It was interesting to me that not all of the information was allowed to be shown to the jury. So the citizen in me thinks, “If I’m a juror and you want my honest opinion, show me everything. Let me see everything so I can come to an informed decision,” but it turns out both sides, the plaintiff side and the defense side, spent an enormous amount of time trying to convince the judge what should be allowed into evidence and what should not be allowed.

Basically, Monsanto if they want certain things not allowed, so not to be shown to the jury, and the plaintiff wants certain things to be shown. Everybody is obviously strategizing. It’s interesting to me how these decisions are made. I was not aware that there’s so much energy spent to make a decision on which evidence is allowed to be shown versus which evidence is not allowed to be shown, but it was good that the jury was very involved. On a personal level, I was extremely nervous. I did not know what was going to happen. Being in that box is very intimidating, let me tell you.

Dr. Wendy Myers: I can only imagine being in that hot seat with a team of the best lawyers on the planet.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: They have George Lombardi, the first law lawyer for Monsanto in the Johnson trial, and George Lombardi, very famous. He was the one who defended a lot of the tobacco companies.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Well, luckily, truth prevailed and-

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Truth prevailed in that trial, for sure.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yes, yes, and that was actually very surprising to me because there’s been a lot of things that have happened. In Mexico, they ruled to outlaw glyphosate, and then all of a sudden now, somebody was paid off, and now it’s going to be allowed. So there’s just a lot. So whatever happened, there are a lot of ways that Monsanto won. So this was a setback for them. Hopefully, more people will come forward. So the person that won the first case, Johnson, claimed that his non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma was caused by glyphosate. Can you simplify what that is exactly for the listeners?

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Yeah. So non-Hodgkin lymphoma is a form of cancer. It is a cancer that involves the lymph glands and the immune system. What Mr. Johnson had was a form of non-Hodgkin lymphoma in the T-cell subtype. So just for your listeners and viewers, without getting into so much complexity and details, non-Hodgkin lymphoma, there are so many types, so many types of it. Think of it; let’s simplify it. Cars. All the cars have tires and a piece of metal, and they drive, but you’ve got big cars, small cars. You’ve got SUVs and sedans. There are so many different types of cars, and they have so many different brands of cars, and then you have the license plates, all of these things. So yes, all the cars have the denominator that they are vehicles that drive, but there are different cars. Non-Hodgkin lymphoma is a term for these cars, and then you have so many different types of cars that actually are involved.

So what he had was a T-cell non-Hodgkin lymphoma, specifically a disease called Mycosis fungoides, which is a cutaneous T-cell lymphoma that usually involves the skin. It actually causes a lot of disfigurements, dryness, and scaly skin. It could sometimes transform into an aggressive entity that involves the internal organs, a lot of times just outside in the skin, but sometimes it could go into the internal organs as well.

Mr. Johnson, what he did for a living, he was a groundskeeper in California. So he was spraying five days a week every week, and he would spend an entire day, school yards, all of these things, and he would use a backpack spray. He also had a truck as well. He had a couple of incidents where the Roundup just came all over his body, and he would wash it off. When he started seeing the skin lesions, he actually called Monsanto. He used the number on the Roundup, and he called, and he was basically inquiring whether what he was experiencing was related to Roundup, and he never got a callback.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Typical, typical. Yeah, I’m not-

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: You’d think at least you’d get a call back, at least.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yeah, exactly. I worry about that for my brother as well, who’s been using this stuff and trying to get him to detox, but this stuff is everywhere. I think there’s a reason that one and 1.6 dogs are getting cancer. They’re rolling around in the grass. It’s sprayed in this stuff. There’s a direct correlation between the increased use of Roundup Ready glyphosate-containing herbicide and kidney issues and dementia and just different types of cancers and lung health issues. The correlations are so strong between so many diseases, not just non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and other types of cancers, but just so many different types of diseases.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: I think the investigations into the impact of glyphosate on the overall health and the environment are worthwhile. I just don’t know. I think that would require the government to require lots of agencies to really say, “Look, our goal is to protect the environment and people and animals. What can we actually do?” The cynical part of me says that there’s always an agenda, and I’m not really sure that’s ever going to happen. So, unfortunately, as consumers, we really need to sometimes do the work and make decisions.

Really, as I said, when I first got involved, I did not appreciate how ubiquitous Roundup was in everything that we are doing and the potential impact on health that is actually ongoing. I think human nature sometimes gets complacent, and life gets busy, and people just don’t have time, and they rely on other agencies to do the work, which is fine; we should. It’s not your job to be the EPA. It’s not my job to be the WHO. We have other things we need to worry about, but unfortunately, it’s gotten to the point where we need to be advocates to patients and others because the institutions that are supposed to do their job, I don’t really agree with them. I’ve said that on the stand. I think the EPA is wrong, and I do not agree with their stand on glyphosate at all.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Is this what inspired you to write your book? You wrote a book called Toxic Exposure. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Yeah. It may be a little bit of a funny story about how I decided to write the book, but in the second trial, the Hardeman against Monsanto trial, there was a hearing before the trial called the Daubert hearing, and in that hearing, basically, the judge determines whether you are allowed to testify or not because both lawyers question the opposing side expert witnesses’ methodology of how they reached a conclusion. So the opposing attorney, Brian Stekloff, who was representing Monsanto, I was on the stand, and he was challenging me. He was saying, “Well, Dr. Nabhan, I don’t really see you going all over the world and all over the country lecturing on glyphosate and Roundup. You are not teaching students and fellows, and other doctors about Roundup and glyphosate. If you indeed believed how bad this is, you would be all over the place making sure you are actually telling people about it.”

I did not know I could, actually, because I thought if you are an active expert witness in an ongoing litigation saga, you cannot really do that because of the perceived conflict of interest that people might say. So I told him in front of the judge, I said, “I did not know that I could do that from a legal standpoint,” and he said, “No, yes, you can,” and that was a moment where I thought, “Okay. Monsanto if I can, I will,” but what is really the best way to do that because if I write something in a scientific journal, it’s not going to be easily accessible to people? When was the last time people really picked up one of our oncology journals, Journal of Clinical Oncology or New England Journal of Medicine, to really read something about that?

So I decided to write a book, and I wanted to write a book for the public so it is not written in a very heavy medical language or legal language. It’s written as a story of what actually happened over these several years, from 2016, when I was contacted, until the end of the third trial in 2019. I was inspired by the patients who actually had a lot of perseverance, and they were very humble to really withstand Monsanto and Monsanto’s interrogation. I was inspired by the law firms and the legal team that was really putting a lot of money and effort on the stand and by my fellow expert witnesses and other experts that testified as well. I testified, obviously, as a cancer specialist, but there were other folks who were testifying, toxicology and epidemiology and others, but that’s really how it started. I thought, “How do I reach most people?” I think reaching the majority of people requires writing something that is outside of the normal medical literature that they can just go and buy from Amazon or Barnes and Noble, wherever it is because that’s really how it’s going to go.

Dr. Wendy Myers: I think that it’s incredible that the lawyer challenged you, and it sparked something in you to go and be an advocate for.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: I never forgot that moment, Wendy. It was like, “That’s what you want? Okay. You got it, buddy. I’m going to try to do it.”

Dr. Wendy Myers: “What a great idea. Thank you.”

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: “I’m going to try to do it.”

Dr. Wendy Myers: “Thank you for that.” It’s amazing how maybe the dark forces, like the dark, are working for the light in that respect and then challenging you, pushing you to do this work. So tell us more about your book, what we’ll learn in your book, and what was your goal with the book, et cetera.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Look, I wanted people to know the story of what actually happened because you can Google glyphosate and Roundup. You’d get a lot of articles and, obviously, people could be informed. Clearly, you know a lot about it as well, but I think there’s a lot to the story beyond these random articles that you see. I wanted to write the story of these three trials. There were three major trials. Before 2018, no one ever sued Monsanto for Roundup cancer ever. There were other lawsuits, we’re not going to go there, but that was the first one.

I wanted people to realize the legal aspect of what goes through these clinical trials, but they want to learn it from my lens, not really from the lens of a lawyer. That’s the piece. The second one is the medical aspect, the story of these patients that actually went into a trial, the first three trials, who they are, what disease they have, and how did it actually go in the courtroom. The third piece is how I evaluated the evidence because I am sure you can bring somebody else who can tell you glyphosate is very safe. We know these people exist. I don’t agree with them. Obviously, Monsanto identified some that agreed with them, and that’s who testified on their behalf.

I wanted readers to understand how I reached the conclusion that Roundup is not as safe as Monsanto portrays. So I bring in the evidence and the papers and how I thought about it to reach that conclusion. So there’s a lot of that but in a simplified manner. There’s a lot of medical piece. There’s a lot of the legal piece, courtroom drama, depositions back and forth between the lawyers and me. I wanted the reader to feel like they were in the courtroom as if you were sitting in the courtroom and just watching what actually happened.

There was also a business aspect of this because Bayer bought Monsanto, as we talked about, and there were a lot of articles about this in the Wall Street Journal and other outlets. Many of these articles were saying that this was one of the worst business acquisitions that they’ve ever seen because what they did is Bayer acquired Monsanto, they paid 63 billion dollars for this, and their stocks went down by two-thirds because now the litigation started, and people were suing Monsanto and Bayer.

So suddenly, they lost a lot of market cap. So they paid a lot of money, either way you’re going, and they had to settle towards the end for a lot of these trials, not all of the trials, but they settled over a hundred thousand for a little bit north of 11 billion dollars. Now, Bayer will tell you that they did not admit any guilt. Wendy, if you’re paying over 11 billion dollars, you’re guilty. If you’re that innocent, you’re not going to pay 11 billion. Call me crazy.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yeah, exactly, exactly, and it’s a big price to pay. I saw that there’s this karmic debt they also had to pay by buying this company and their stock price getting slashed, and I thought, “Well, that’s what you get for.”

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: It’s karma.

Dr. Wendy Myers: “dealing in the darkness.” So what is new now with the Roundup trials? Are there any updates? Is anything else going on?

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Yeah, a lot of things are going on. I predict Roundup is going to be the asbestos thing. We all know asbestos links to mesothelioma, but still today, there are lawyers who are representing patients about asbestos. So several things I think are worth mentioning. One is that Monsanto did win a few trials after these three trials. I think the reason that happened is not because of science, because the lawyers or the patients that were suing Monsanto in the trials that Monsanto won were not strong cases. I think it’s all about how you litigate a trial. Remember, you have to win the jury to win a trial. So there’s a lot of strategy. We talked about how you really convince the jury is very important. Who you bring to the stand is very important. I did not testify in these trials that Monsanto won as an FYI, but they did win a couple of trials, and then Monsanto became very strategic.

So they settled all of these cases over a hundred thousand, but they kept a few trials they did not settle where they thought they had a chance of winning. Remember, the chance of winning is not always about the science. It’s about which state you are in and which district you are in. Is it more favorable to the defense? Is it more favorable to the plaintiff? What’s the jury poll look like? So for St. Louis as an example, there’s a trial ongoing right now in St. Louis, and Monsanto is litigating that trial. I did testify about that about two weeks ago, but the reason they’re doing it, in my opinion, is because it’s St. Louis. That’s where Monsanto’s headquarters were. So they feel they have a chance, and if they win in St. Louis, it’s actually great against the same team that they lost against in Hardeman.

So some trials are still ongoing, that’s one. Number two, Bayer had promised that they would remove Roundup from the shelves in 2023 for residential use. So if you’re a farmer or a pesticide applicator, you can get access to it, but if you just want to do it for your lawn, you can’t get it. So they promised they want to do it in 2023. I still see it, but I’m waiting, but that is the promise, and they issued that in a press release, which your viewers can see on their website. They said, “We’re doing this just for litigation reasons, not because we’re guilty.”

The third thing that is going on, which I also mentioned in my book, is that there’s a court ruling that the EPA needs to go back and re-review the evidence. So that is actually a big win because then the court said to the EPA, “We think you did not do due diligence. There’s a lot of emerging evidence that we did not think you incorporated into your decision.” The EPA was supposed to come up with its final statement towards the end of 2022, but it has not done that so far. So we’ll have to see. I have not seen a new EPA issue. So a lot of things are ongoing, and I think that, hopefully, at least, the book is a primer to tell people about how we got here because it just goes through history.

Dr. Wendy Myers: I thought that it was really interesting that they did rule that Home Depot is going to remove Roundup from the shelves and they’re going to take it off the stores, and that still has yet to transpire. I think that’s a huge one. I think there are millions of people using this stuff, spraying it on their driveway, spraying it in their garden, and they don’t know what they’re doing. They have no idea that it can potentially cause cancer and other health issues.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Absolutely. I hope that doing things like this, what you are doing, what you’re spreading the word and letting people become aware, the hope is that this is going to help a lot of folks who may not be aware. Look, I think, ultimately, things go down to choice. It’s not about you can never prevent people from always doing the right thing . People could choose to do something wrong. It’s a choice, but you must have all of the information to make that choice. So you could go right now to the store and get a pack of cigarettes. I’m not advising you to do that, but you can. You know the risks, and you choose to do it regardless of the risks, and I would respect that; although I would differ in opinion, ultimately, you are well informed.

What is very striking in Roundup is that people are not well-informed. So there was a lot of talk about putting a warning label, all of that stuff, and there’s no warning label. Monsanto has refused to do that, and Bayer has refused to do that. I don’t think, to my knowledge, the law firms have not been able to enforce, or the court has not forced, Monsanto and Bayer to put a warning label around them.

Dr. Wendy Myers: It really is incredible that there’s no warning label, but luckily, the evidence is mounting about the toxic effects of Roundup and that it contains glyphosate. So what can somebody do, say, if they suspect that their illness or their cancer or their health issue may be a result of their lifelong exposure, or at least the last 30 years or so could be the results of this exposure? What do you recommend that they do?

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Well, I think the most important thing is to discuss it with their doctor. They need to have a doctor that is willing to listen to them. The best thing that doctors can do is listen to their patients. So they have to listen to them and understand what the fear is. Some doctors may not have enough information or knowledge to opine on certain things, so they may have to talk to more than one doctor to know a little bit more.

What I did, as I told you, was really looking at the link between glyphosate and Roundup and non-Hodgkin lymphoma. If there are people who have a different type of cancer. It’s hard to comment on it because there’s really not enough studies to look at every single cancer. Most of the studies looked at the link between non-Hodgkin lymphoma and glyphosate. I did get a text, actually, as an example, through my LinkedIn profile from a patient who had a form of cancer but is not non-Hodgkin lymphoma. He was telling me he thinks it’s because of Roundup, and I said, “I really don’t know. I have not really seen that type of data or literature.”

That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It just means there’s not enough out there about it. So I think about talking to the doctors, and if they feel that there’s a lawsuit there that they would like to do. I can’t comment on that because that’s really up to them and their attorneys and things like that, but my advice is always to talk to your healthcare provider, healthcare professional, discuss that, ask questions, and research. Sometimes you got to do some research on your own. Listen to your podcast.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yeah, exactly. I was thinking more along the lines of calling your lawyer, calling your personal injury lawyer because I think there are so many doctors that really aren’t informed about toxins and how they cause health issues and symptoms, and they’re just well-meaning, but just not a part of their education or interest.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Actually, Monsanto, what they did throughout the trials, always said, “Well, the treating physicians of these patients never said that Roundup caused their illness,” but they’ve never researched the topic. How can they opine on something they haven’t researched? That’s really the answer to that, but to your point, many doctors have not done that research, and that is actually one of the pillars that Monsanto relied on when they were discussing the case with the jury, that treating physicians of this patient never said in the medical records that Roundup caused their illness, and the answer to that, “Well, they’re not going to say something if they have not researched it,” and I said, “I did not know in the spring of 2016 when I was called that there was such a link and I studied it, and I researched it, and I became convinced. So why would you expect them to opine on something they have not studied?” but that’s part of their playbook. You’re going to win the jury.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Exactly. Exactly, but this is also one of the reasons I do this work as well because I want to inform medical doctors about the link between heavy metals and chemicals and the symptoms and diagnoses that their patients are experiencing because there’s a massive link. For every health condition and symptom almost, there can be an underlying chemical or metal that’s causing that directly or indirectly, and that’s what I’ve learned in my research over the last 10 to 15 years. So I applaud the work that you are doing and honing in on the glyphosate and Roundup. So tell us where we can get your book. If anyone wants to expand on this and learn what happened with the trial and what’s going on with this and the future of Roundup in our environment, where can we get your book?

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: First of all, thank you for the opportunity. Really, it means a lot. I really, really appreciate the time that you gave me with your viewers and listeners. The book is available everywhere folks consume books. So it is available on Amazon. It is called Toxic Exposure: The True Story Behind the Monsanto Trials and the Search for Justice. Barnes and Noble, it’s available through the publisher’s website, and my publisher is Johns Hopkins, so Johns Hopkins University Press also. They can go on, and they actually can purchase it through that. They can get a lot of this information through my website, www.chadinabhan.com.

I did tape a couple of podcasts on that. I have my own podcast, which is called Healthcare Unfiltered. I do cover various healthcare topics, not just cancer but general healthcare topics. It airs every Tuesday morning. I did air a couple of episodes on Toxic Exposure to glyphosate. I plan to write about this every so often. I think that it is; hopefully, the book gives them a primer of what’s going on, not in a boring way, in a way that they understand the system, but in a storytelling way because the goal of me was to tell a story. It’s also available on Audible. I narrated the book, so they have to tolerate my voice for a while, but it is available on Audible and Kindle as well, but it’s everywhere folks consume books.

Dr. Wendy Myers: I didn’t do that for my book. I just didn’t get around to it. I should. I really should do that.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Your next book, your next book.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yeah, next book. Well, Dr. Nabhan, thank you so much for joining us for the show, and I definitely encourage anyone wanting to know about this groundbreaking this court case to go check out your book, Toxic Exposure, because I think anyone interested in this subject, glyphosate is really at the center of so many different chemicals. There are 42,000 chemicals in use in the United States alone. A hundred thousand are out there and have been developed, but glyphosate is really the center point of this, and what lengths some of these corporations will go to sell their product. It’s something like over 19 billion pounds, I think, a year are being sold.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: Well, I don’t think that’s yearly, but I’ll have to look at the stats.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Maybe total, maybe it’s the total or something like that.

Dr. Chadi Nabhan: They’ve done probably about 19 billion pounds worldwide since it became commercial or about nine billion in the US. There’s a lot. There’s a lot. It’s all over. The one plug about the book is that in addition to glyphosate and chemicals, there’s a lot of it about legal and medical gems, which is just really understanding what happens in a courtroom, which really applies to things even that are not glyphosate-related, how do the jury react, how do the lawyers interact, how do you really put the witness in a corner, things like that that regardless of what type of lawsuit, I do think they may enjoy that.

Dr. Wendy Myers: Yeah, that’s great. You can have your toxic info plus law and order at the same time. I love that. That’s my favorite. I love that. Well, Dr. Chadi, thank you so much for joining us on the Myers Detox Podcast. Everyone, I’m Dr. Wendy Myers, and I love bringing guests around the world to teach you about how toxins harm your health and solutions. You can take back your health. You deserve to feel good, and that’s my goal with this podcast to help give you those missing pieces of the puzzle in your health that you’re searching for. Talk to you soon.